Posted by Michel Pontmercy on November 25, 1997 at 01:01:49:
In Reply to: Re: Santy's Faith posted by LP on November 23, 1997 at 17:33:34:
: (Cecilia look! We've got fans!)
Can I have your autograph?
: : : Santino might very well have believed in the old legends.
: : Would he?
: Lots of others did. And Santino was in a postition to hear more rumors than most.
Perhaps, but this does not necessarily work with the argument that Santino had no Catholic beliefs to speak of either. I agree with your point that the rules of the coven where not truly based on Christian beliefs so much as couched in those terms for greater understanding among those he was preaching them to. However, if Santino was basing his faith on a more secular idea then it stands to reason he was keeping his eyes firmly on the ground and not in that of legends. I think that if anything he would have looked upon legends of the Mother and the Father as simply something which might make his followers question him, but not something which would shake the foundations of his own beliefs.
: I'll even throw in a quote: (Santy to Armand) "In all parts of the world one found such tales. And one could easily dismiss them as fanciful save for one thing. The ancient heretic Marius had been found in Venice, and there punished by the Children of Darkness. The legend of Marius had been true." (VL 302)
Let me suggest another interpretation to this quote then:
The legend of the Father and Mother meant that there was a chance Santino's followers would question his teachings. If nothing else the fact that more powerful beings than him existed on earth could shake his followers faith in him. So, what must Santino do?
He has enough evidence to find out the legend is true, he finds Marius's location and then what - "The ancient heretic Marius had been found in Venice, and there punished by the Children of Darkness."
Did Santino need to kill or control the Mother and Father? No. If he heard the legend he'd know killing them would mean his own death. Likewise he could probably guess that having them in his possesion would mean enormous danger and responsibility. Did he need Marius dead? Not really. If anything Marius did him better by being alive. Let him care for the Mother and Father and let Santino be free to continue on his rule.
However, Marius and Those Who Must Be Kept did still present a threat to his authority. So he removes that threat. The Coven attacks, Marius's home is destroyed, Marius himself is hurt and the Coven can now go home safe in the knowledge that they (with Santino leading them) are still mighty and right.
We can then make two guesses about Armand:
1. Santino knew about him ahead of time and knew it would be an excellent example to his coven if he could take the legendary Marius's own Child and turn him into a Coven member.
2. Santino didn't know about him ahead of time and simply improvised something which ended up having the same effect.
: :And now we see him in Queen of the Damned. To assume that he lept from his faith in God/Satan to the Mother and the Father needs more information.
: Nobody has bothered trying to prove to me that Santino ever had faith in God.
Good point. There's no direct cannon that he had faith in God (Catholic or otherwise) only what I've guessed given what we knew.
: Finally!!! Someone has asked the question!!
Lestat and Santino's relationship is a particular interest of mine [smile]
: Lestat makes the point that Marius was not killed because Akasha loved him, not just Lestat.
But does he mean this or is he just trying to spare Marius's feelings since he knows Marius would read the words later and take them to heart? After 2,000 years of service Marius is given the cold shoulder (no pun intended) in favor of this young fledgling. I don't think this is a sign that Akasha preferred Marius's happiness over Lestat's, or even cared about Marius all that much.
Think about it - Marius would have been a much better choice of companion than Lestat. He'd served her for years, which to Akasha's way of thinking (and I will say up front I do not consider her particularly bright so I am only making conclusions based on what her thought process seems like, not what I would personally think myself)means that Marius would serve her again once she started making demands. Marius was already powerful and legendery and respected by those who knew him or of him. Contrast that with Lestat who was a relative no one (save for those who wanted to kill him - which would not make him ideal leadership material) was a young and reletively weak fledgling besides and had no skill for leadership.
If Akasha cared for Marius - enough to want him alive for her own reasons alone - she would have picked him for her consort. But she abandoned him and chose Lestat instead. Therefore I don't think a list of those Marius loves can be counted as those who lived.
: Anybody ask why Daniel survived?
My guess is because he was Armand's fledgling and would have caused upset to Lestat on Armand's behalf. Also she would have had to track him down to kill him and he was with the others still. It could very well be that either she did intend to kill him and was going to do it after meeting with the others, or that he was simply spared as an afterthought because she would have had to go out of her way to do it and, since he was already alive and with the others, she might as well take the same effort and persuade him to her cause.
: Not necessarily. It was never actually proven that Akasha could harm Eric. They didn't know if he was powerful enough. But that's another topic...
True, but whether he needed Maharet or could do it on his own doesn't change the figuring for everyone else overmuch.
: Okay, here are my theories:
: 1) Marius was trapped under ice. But Akasha didn't want this to be permanant. Pandora needed someone to help her, and it ended up being Santy. And then Akasha was too busy to get around to destroying him, especially since he was now with Marius.
Which would make him the same as Daniel then, more or less. I can see this as a possibility.
Now, onto some of my own thoughts and interpretations.
: pg 237: Santino goes with Pandora to help her find Marius.
This one is an unknown all around. Was he friends with Pandora? Marius? Just there at the time? There's just not enough information to guess.
: pg 266: Santino speaks "with courtly politeness" to Marius, while he is hostile or indifferent to everyone else, really.
I've my own theory here.
Santino was once a bastard of the highest rank (I agree with those who compared him to Methos - I would have done it myself if someone hadn't beaten me to it). Marius was one who was hurt the most by what he did because of Armand. Santino is now "reformed" for lack of a better word and trying to do what he can to at the very least not set off hostile waves with the others. Marius, then, gets special treatment for having had such bad treatment before. The others are comparatively neutral to him and don't need such a show. Marius, however, needs the extra effort to prove that Santino was not the man he was.
: pg 277: "They were all of them magnificent in their own way. The tall heavily built Santno was elegant in his priestly black,
And you wonder where I get the idea of him as religious from ;)
: with his lustrous black eyes and a sensuous mouth." No one else, other than Maharet, is given such an in-depth look by Marius in this section.
It is Marius's point of view but Lestat is still the one writing it in the end. Given Lestat's habit of elaborating on things this could just as easily mean Lestat found Santino attractive as it did Marius.
As for why Marius keeps looking at Santino I think it again goes back to the burning and kidnapping - Marius, after years of separation caused by this incident now has his beloved Amadeo back again. Santino, being the cause of this separation, would then warrent extra attention to see what he would do and how Armand feels about him.
I agree that the description is mostly complimentary, but Marius's feelings about it are unclear (and this is again perhaps Lestat's influence as our typist). Does Marius truly find Santino attractive or is he remarking to himself upon the irony that this being who should (and perhaps is) so hateful to him does not have the courtesy to be as outwardly ugly as his soul once was?
: And as the facts are, Lestat never met Santino. There was no trace of Satino in Rome when Lestat went there, and another mention is never made until QotD.
I don't have the book in front of me at the moment but I believe all Lestat says is that the Roman coven didn't know where Santino was, not that Lestat himself did not run into him. True, this does not mean he did only that this avenue of possibility is not necessarily out of our reach.
: "As for Santino, the Italian, I knew almost nothing of him. I had expected nothing. He was young. Perhaps my cries had never reached him. And why should he listen if they had?"
If Lestat and Santino had met in the past (which they would need to to make him rank as a beloved of Lestat and one who must live) then it's also possible that after two centuries of separation Lestat isn't sure of the relationship.
This might also explain why Santino watches Lestat so calculatingly in Queen of the Damned. Santino might be wondering what has become of Lestat after all this. It might stand to reason there could be some estrangement between them due to Santino's uncertainty about Lestat's feelings regarding Akasha.
: If Marius and Santino had something sub rosa, then it explains two things:
[snip of Marius's privacy and Lestat's respecting it]
Taken it as a given that all theories we are putting forth here are very tenuous ones given the lack of cannon in the books, I don't think we can take what we know and lead to the conclusion that Marius and Santino were lovers. To what you said, let me add that Santino is still the torturer and kidnapper of Armand. Having a child myself I can assure you that I would not want to be overly cuddly with anyone who took him away from me and, at best and with some extremely extenuating circumstances, I might have a cool respect/politeness for the one who did it but even then is pushing it (and assuming my child was not harmed in the bargain).
I think it makes more sense to guess that Lestat and Santino knew one another before the fact, only Lestat kept quiet about it. Why? Well here is some conjecture:
1. The only time Lestat could have done it would have been when he was travelling with Gabrielle, which also means most likely Italy.
2. That time of Lestat's life was extremely painful. He'd just lost his lover, his home, his family (for all intents and purposes - he didn't think he would see them again) and is now loosing his mother who spends less and less time with him.
3. Lestat, as I mentioned before, goes mute on any times of extreme pain, unless he can gloss it over (Kill myself in the Gobi? Don't be silly, I only wanted a tan!) Therefore we have reason one for why he would keep quiet about it.
4. Santino would be considered public enemy no. 1 by Marius, Armand and possibly Santino's former coven. While Lestat does have no problems in exposing Marius and Those Who Must Be Kept, he also felt in his heart of hearts that Marius could protect himself from such a thing (Lestat, after all, didn't draw a map to Marius's location, only told everyone the legends were true). Santino, on the other hand, probably could not, especially since Lestat was of the belief that Marius could set vampires on fire with his mind without even being there (he thinks it's Marius doing it at the end of The Vampire Lestat, not Akasha). Therefore there is reason two to keep quiet - Lestat is attempting to hide Santino's avenues of safety (a possible friendship with Lestat) because Santino probably could not save himself if tracked down.
Just my theory. Although now I think I'm as tired as Heather and probably babbling ;)